But this was also the heritage that people here strongly referred to — to remind others how important these values are, what was achieved 30 years ago and how fragile these rights and freedoms remain. So that was, for sure, something important. On the other hand, this was also an argument that the government was referring to. And I think that they had a point here. One of the most important aspects of the narratives of the Law and Justice party was that our suffering, central Eastern European suffering — coming from Soviets and then from Communism — has never become, and I share this view, a part of the DNA of Western Europe that created the European Union. We have never been understood with what we were saying about this part of the European history. So it was also used to gain votes for this nationalistic feeling of not being treated the same way as other Europeans. So I think this was relevant in so many respects, and that’s one of the most important elements here.
French: That’s fascinating because an appeal to history is also part of the message of the right in the United States as well, and sort of an appeal to the sense that members of the American right have been neglected or overlooked in history, or exploited, is a very powerful part of the appeal. You acknowledge the validity of some of these feelings, and I think that when you’re combating right-wing authoritarianism, it’s very important to acknowledge that there are some kernels, some seeds that are of legitimate concern that sometimes blossom into these movements.
So in 2023, Poland defeats the Law and Justice party. A centrist candidate, Donald Tusk comes to power, but the story isn’t over yet, is it? I mean, Law and Justice didn’t just go away. What is the current status of Polish politics at the moment? What’s the current balance of power in Poland between authoritarianism and the forces of democracy?
Gliszczynska-Grabias: As you rightfully said, the Law and Justice party is still there. What is more is that we have other populists — some claim much worse than the Law and Justice party — gaining votes. At the same time, the current government is facing an enormous challenge, and I believe that this is one of the most important lessons to be learned: that populists, while in power, can really dismantle the very basic constitutional order to the extent that later on, even if they are defeated, it’s so difficult to overcome. And to bring back and restore things in the right order seems almost impossible.
French: Well, Aleksandra, you’ve described a pretty long process here and one that required a lot of sustained courage. In other words, month after month, year after year, getting out there in defiance and opposition to a populist government.
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